I have a view point that is not "politically correct" in the natural childbirth arena. But I am going to share it anyway.Why don't women, particularly God-fearing women, consider photos of naked women giving birth as inappropriate? Take the baby or pregnancy out of the photo, and it's pornography. Put a baby into the equation (whether in the womb or out), and nudity is perfectly acceptable!
If you google Unassisted Childbirth on youtube, you will find a cache of videos of women giving birth completely naked, and you'll see still shots of women with their privates exposed. You'll also find videos that have been viewed by thousands upon thousands of people.
I know for certain that many of those viewers are twisted people viewing these videos for unwholesome satisfaction.
I recently read a wonderful birth story by a young LDS woman. I was surprised that she has posted for all the world to see, photos of herself birthing nude. She gives a warning at the beginning of her post, "Please note that birth isn't something you can really do while dressed, so you'll have to overlook any nakedness."
Without wanting to criticize this faithful woman, I have to say that it is impossible to overlook her nakedness! I would have enjoyed reading the story much more if the photos didn't reveal soo much of her nakedness.
I remember when I first realized that sharing birth nudity is wrong. Many years ago I was at the library checking out a website which has tons of photos of naked pregnant and birthing women. Someone passed by and I immediately felt concerned that if they glanced at my screen they would think I was looking at pornography.
I realized then that what I was seeing was inappropriate.
I had this realization affirmed when showing two young couples I was giving childbirth instruction to, birth videos that depicted naked women. The husbands were very uncomfortable and I knew that this was a sign that the Spirit of God was baring witness to me, once again of the truth that glaring nudity is inappropriate, even during childbirth education.
I contest that photos of birth CAN be thoughtfully taken to minimize nudity and women can birth with clothes on (when necessary.)
Personally, I wore an undershirt (tied in a knot below my breast) during my last birth (#7) and I felt modest, yet unhindered. (I felt the need to be modest in case my teenage and pre-teen sons wanted to visit with me while I labored and so that I could share photos of the birth on the internet.) We took photos of me in the tub which I edited for nudity before posting to the internet.
I understand that people view such photos and videos as educational. I wonder how women throughout history were able to give birth without such education?
I am not saying that breastfeeding is therefore akin to pornography. Personally, I don't generally cover up when breastfeeding, but I don't reveal too much either.
But breastfeeding is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a woman giving birth (or during pregnancy,) taking photos of her completely naked body and putting them up on the internet.
Birth is sexual. Almost every uc'er and homebirther and natural birther agrees. If it is sexual then we need to consider who we birth in front of and if we should take photos, and if we do, if we should share them with the world.
Breastfeeding is not sexual. Breastfeeding is nurturing. Birth is sexual, therefore it should be private.
I believe God wants His disciples to be modest, even during childbirth (when strangers are present) and this includes during childbirth education. Here are some scriptures to support my belief.
1 Tim. 2:15 She shall be saved if they continue in faith, charity, holiness, with sobriety.
The footnotes in my bible show that in the verse the word 'sobriety' in the Greek form is 'modesty.'
I think the scripture most pertinent to this discussion is:
1 Thess. chapter 4
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should babstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in bany matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
As women seeking to do the will of God, we must understand that we cannot look to the world's example in childbirth. We must be led by the Spirit, not man. There are "natural" birthers that advocate things that we as Saints should not espouse to as we are to be "peculiar."
God has called us to holiness, to possessing our vessel in sanctification and honor. Let us honor our bodies and glory God by not engaging in distributing birth nudity.
I share this message not with a spirit of condemnation and hate, but with love toward my sisters who seek to experience and educate others about normal birth.
For more information about childbirth from a scriptural perspective, read my book, A Christ-Centered Birth: Applying Principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Childbearing.
I would love to receive links to modest childbirth photos and videos.
Read my follow-up post: More Thoughts On Birth Nudity
See also: Birthing Gowns
Posts
27 comments:
Susana- I was lead here thru the LDS UC group & am thoroughly impressed with your outlook on birth pornography... While doing my own research, more than a year ago, I came across many nude photos, too! It was embarassing to not only see them myself, but also to attempt to explain to my then 4-year old WHY the women were nude & WHY their photos were available for total strangers to view! It confused him to realize that I didn't even personally KNOW these women! Now I realize, it is exactly as you've stated- immodest & incorrect for us to participate in or partake of... Thank you for having the courage & the faith to 'speak' the truth!
I agree with what you have to say. I was watching the Business of Being Born and my husband made a comment a naked breast was a naked breast and men don't discriminate between the situations. For men, sexuality is visual and women it is emotional. Even if we, as women, see the emotional aspect of childbirth and connect with it on that level, many men just see the people involved.
I also found this blog through the LDS UC group.
I have mixed emotions on the issue. For one thing,I know you are right when you say many people view these videos and pictures for impure reasons.For meisophiliacs(people with a fetish for pregnant women) these videos and pictures are really nothing but the pornography of their dreams.
On the other hand though, I agree with Ina May Gaskin that if more women could see the process of natural childbirth themselves, there would be less fear about it and consequently the c-section rate would drop. In her opinion, birth videos without those parts blurred out in mystery could accomplish this if they were made more available.
However, I think videotaping and posting pictures for all to see takes away from the very sacred and private nature of birth.
This is going to sound silly but, the thing that gave me the most confidence about a baby fitting through there was actually sitting fully clothed, taking a ball that was 38 cm in circumference (considered a HUGE head for a newborn), holding it near my pelvis, and thinking, "Well that's not so bad at all." In fact, it wasn't even close to being the "watermelon"I was told that would have to fit through a hole the size of a lemon. Now whenever someone says that, I just smile and nod.
So, yes, I think we can in fact do without these birth videos and pictures. I would like to think that back in older times, women would reassure each other privately in a way similar to my ball trick.
--Chelsea McMurdo--
Susana,
I was priviledged to attend a birth of a friend who was formerly of a "plain" faith...it was a very fast birth (45 min), and I walked in literally seconds before the birth. She wore a nightgown, caught her baby, and I helped her to position the baby on a pillow between her legs (it was a very short cord) while she waited for the placenta. I left her home after she had showered and started nursing. And through the whole thing, I saw less exposed than you do at a public beach. Birthing modestly really can be done. As for educational reasons....I think that there is a time for those...but in a similar way to other medical education. Many of these photos are not done in an educational way...they are done in a pornographic way. Medical photos never show a face, for one. Care is taken to protect the identity of the subject. And really, how many different pictures are needed, to show birth? Truthfully, probably none at all. I'm rambling here, but just thought I would share my experience attending a modest birth, and tell you that I really enjoyed your post.
Carrie
Ladies,
Thanks for all of your support.
SC Mommie: I was trying to find my video that I put on youtube under UC and my 13 yr old son walked up and quickly turned away. I have shown my daughter some birth images and I know she has felt uncomfortable.
Micki: Thanks for sharing your experience!
Chelsea: thanks for sharing your thoughts! I think birth is sacred and private, too. I also do believe that birth images can be helpful, I just think we can take more care in their presentation.
Carrie: Thanks for your insights.
I have heard of women wearing nightgowns during birth. I know I had birthed completely nude with my other births, but aas my children have grown, I have felt uncomfortable showing my older boys the photos/videos.
In retrospect I wish I had been more clothed. So I made sure this time to wear an undershirt to cover my breasts, also so that my kids could visit me while I was laboring without them feeling uncomfortable.
I linked over from LDS UC. I can only speak from my experience. My first visual experience with human birth was when I was probably 8. My mom gave me a book with photographs. There was a photo of blue fabric with a small slit and a gloved hand pressing down on a bloody lump. I had no idea what it was and asked my mom. She said it was a baby. I was so confused. That small bloody lump was a baby? Pages later there was a full shot of a woman with a human head sticking out of her. That was much more explanatory than any blue drape lump thing. It made sense to me. It humanized the act. It became a baby and not something icky that one had to have gloves to touch.
> I understand that people view such photos and videos
> as educational. I wonder how women throughout
> history
> were able to give birth without such education?
They were there in person witnessing their mothers, sisters, aunts, cousins, etc giving birth. We have completely disconnected from birth in this culture. While I don't agree with posting something so private of myself to the interwebs (none of my births were even photographed), I understand why people do it. There is a sense of taking birth back from the establishment. Rescuing it from the gloves and the drapes and the enemas and the shaving and the slicing and dicing that goes on in the hands of the "professionals" in the name of safety and science. We live in a sanitized culture and in many areas of the country the only people with access to live birth are in hospitals where they desecrate the holy act that it is. I will not be having any more children and when my daughter and I were invited to a friend's birth it was a special gift. When my daughter witnessed that birth it was a very powerful thing for her. We had never discussed sex before. Now that we are having those discussions (a year later) she has a perspective that I never see with the other children I work with. She saw the end from the beginning and the impact will stay with her. I trust her because she saw the sanctity of life and respects it. I am so grateful for that experience in her life. It was profound.
I don't like birth photography from an educational perspective other than the rare face presentation, assessment and correction for nuchal cord or to see how a nuchal hand and a laceration are related. I guess I come from a medical perspective and looking at a perinium is simply looking for a tear and to assess if a repair is needed. I would rather visualize how that baby moved down the birth canal and rotated through the pelvis and think about the best positions a mom could be in to make it easier for her, and educate myself on how to assist someone (should that be wanted) in that arena.
Micki said, " I was watching the Business of Being Born and my husband made a comment a naked breast was a naked breast and men don't discriminate between the situations. For men, sexuality is visual and women it is emotional. Even if we, as women, see the emotional aspect of childbirth and connect with it on that level, many men just see the people involved."
This threw me off because this is the same logic that makes people judgemental and discriminatory to breastfeeding mothers. While I agree that both birth and breastfeeding can be done (and should be done as) modestly as possible, they are also two acts that are done in love and the intent to care for an infant, so not something to be viewed sexually. Its a cultural belief that states that all nudity is sexual in nature.
I agree that photography and videos do not need to portray nudity in birth and breastfeeding. But I don't agree that birth should take place modestly. As I have babies at home with older children present, I may choose to be more covered so my children are not seeing my nudity, or I may think that they need to know the appropriate contexts for nudity and that birth is one of them. I'm not there yet, so I won't know. I know with my 14 month old, I have no shame in being totally nude in front of him, showering with him or bathing with him. But he's a year old...its different once that child reaches 5.
So basically, this topic opens up the whole conversation about appropriate nudity and its appropriate contexts, especially when children are present.
But my conclusion on the topic at hand is that birth does not need to be done while modestly dressed, but pictures being taken, even for educational purposes, should done tastefully and modestly.
Melissa,
I was hoping you would respond to this post. I appreciate your thoughts, as always. I totally agree that seeing babies being born naturally is powerful and having a baby born naturally is empowering and an experience that many of us want to share. I just think that we have to be very careful about how we do it. I do believe that there is a demarcation line.
I love photos of babies being born. I love photos of women breastfeeding, too. Some of these are so inspiring.
But there are photos that also make me uncomfortable and I think that is a spiritual prompting.
That is neat that you and Mandy were able to attend your friend's birth together. What a neat experience for her.
HI Jenne,
Thanks for taking to the time to share your thoughts.
I agree that not all nudity is sexual in nature. And I feel that women should breastfeed anywhere they need to.
I think it is unecessary when a woman practically wears a tent to cover herself when breastfeeding, but I also think it is unecessary to let it all hang out too (particularly in public or in mixed company.)
I also feel no shame being nude in front of my little ones and letting them be nude. But there is an age when privacy becomes necessary. I think this is around the age of 8.
>So basically, this topic opens up >the whole conversation about >appropriate nudity and its >appropriate contexts, especially >when children are present.
I agree but I would add "when children and MEN are present."
I also agree that birth doesn't always need to be done while modestly dressed. But I think that we must ponder this.
The two times I gave birth in the hospital I was completely nude. For my second birth I wore a tank for much of it but there came a point when I took it off.
The midwife, who was standing in the room watching me labor (as well as the other nurse), at one point said, "Wow, Susan, you have a beautiful body."
This stuck with me as I realized that my nudity didn't matter to me after a certain point. From my perspective I didn't feel naked. But from everyone else's perspective I was.
So I do think that we might have to consider this when birthing in front of strangers, especially men.
This is why homebirth is so awesome. We can birth in privacy and modesty as we can choose who is present with us.
With my recent birth I knew that my teenage and pre-teen sons might want to come in to visit with me while I labored, (and that my female friend would be with us,) and I hoped that photos would be taken so that I could share my birth with others, so I wore an undershirt in order to cover my breasts.
I did not feel the need to rip it off late in labor (but I would have if I had), and of course I would be less concerned about exposing myself to a female than I would my grown sons. The nice thing about homebirth is that my boys (and other family)are able to experience natural childbirth, wihout having to be stuck with me in one room the whole time as is done in hospital birth.
>But my conclusion on the topic at >hand is that birth does not need >to be done while modestly >dressed, but pictures being >taken, even for educational >purposes, should done tastefully >and modestly.
I agree.
Thanks again!
Another reader from the LDS UC group. This topic is something that I have never really taken the time to think about, and it really stood out to me. I am expecting my first baby in just a couple weeks, and I fully plan on being nude while giving birth. It feels the best to me, knowing that as soon as the baby comes, I will be able to place him right on the breast, skin to skin. But, I insist (as does my husband) that any pictures taken must be completely modest. I would never share pictures of myself in the nude. And those that will be attending my baby's birth are expected to respect my sacred body.
However, I must say that in studying childbirth, I have felt a great appreciation for photos and videos that show birth nudity. Because I haven't experienced birth yet, and I haven't attended any births either, I am incredibly ignorant! I do agree that some images are not respectful. If I feel the Spirit leave when I come across some images, I know they are not necessary for furthering my birth education. But there are also many images that don't make me uneasy, they actually inspire me and educate me. It's hard to differentiate between them, all we can do is rely on the Spirit.
I'm glad that you have presented this topic! Now I can be more aware of, and in tune with the Spirit on what is really helpful, and what is pornographic.
Mallory,
I have also been inspired by photos that show nudity.
I have one photo that I wish I had on a disk so that I could put it on my site. It is one of a new mom and baby and dad in a birthing tub.
Baby is newly born and is looking at mom. Dad is looking at baby, and mom is smiling, looking at dad. It is the most touching photo. There is some nudity, neither has a shirt on, but it is not excessive (her breasts are under water.)
Anyway, I like what you say about the Spirit bearing witness when it is no longer educational.
Thanks for sharing.
Taking a dissenting view here...Although all pornography utilizes nudity in some form or another, all nudity does not equal pornography. I don't find nudity in birth offensive per se, and actually I find it incredibly beautiful at times. For me it's the same as breastfeeding versus a strip tease that exposes a breast--it's all in the context.
I am totally comfortable breastfeeding in public and I never cover up. But you'd never find me participating in a wet t-shirt contest or anything of the like! The breast itself is not what's objectionable; it's the context and meaning attached to it. It's the objectification for sexual pleasure that makes a body part pornographic, not the body part itself.
Rixa,
I was looking forward to your post, and I figured your view would probably be "dissenting." :)
I am not saying that breastfeeding is therefore akin to pornography.
Personally, I don't generally cover up when breastfeeding, but I don't reveal too much either.
But that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a woman giving birth, taking photos of her completely naked body and putting them up on the internet.
Birth is sexual. Almost every uc'er and homebirther and natural birther agrees. If it is sexual then we need to consider who we birth in front of and if we should take photos, and if we do, if we should share them with the world.
I even happened upon some website that had great infant resuscitation info, but it also had a photo of a pregnant couple, (both completely naked,) and it really looked like they were making love. I didn't bother to really look closely.
What are your thoughts about this. Breastfeeding is not sexual. Breastfeeding is nurturing. Birth is sexual, therefore it should be private.
There are alot of "natural" birthers that advocate things that we as Saints should not espouse to as we are to be "peculiar."
I had to come to your blog because I know the woman you used for your example. I was at her birth, and I took some of the pictures. Shame on you. Shame on you for blogging negativly about someone you don't even know. Mind you, it would not be right to pick on someone you knew either... But my point is that birth and pregnancy are beautiful and important. They should be seen and understood. They do not need to be censored because twisted people like you see them in a a sexual way. Pornorgaphy is degrading and about lust. Birth and maternaty photos celebrate and inform. I am LDS. And as you can tell, this something I feel VERY strongly about. If men only see women's bodies for sex--and not see breastfeeding, pregnancy, and birth--women's bodies will never be elevated beyond sexual objects. And woman need to see the beauty and power that their bodies are created for. As a fellow Latter-Day Saint, I am disappointed in your blogging negativly about a fellow sister in Zion and your unbelieveably perverted views.
Hi there Sea_Gal,
I am sorry that you are not understanding my post. I am not picking on your freind, nor blogging negatively about HER. I said in the post that she is a faithful sister. I think quite highly of her.
My post did come about as a response to viewing her photos, because I feel like she and soo many women (myself included) have been deceived.
I used to video tape my births and take photos of labor. And before that I used to trapse around in immodest clothing. Thinking that I was celebrating the beauty of my body.
I still have no shame about my sexuality or my body, but I am modest. Why should this not apply to pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding?
But then I was led away from that and had a witness that sharing such intimate moments was wrong, and this was confirmed by scripture.
I think we should be cautious how we "celebrate and inform" pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding.
As I wrote in the post, breastfeeding and birthing are different.
You are right, birth and pregnancy ARE beautiful and important, and sacred too.
I tried to be very considerate of your friend's feelings. I tried to word my post carefully. Initially I had linked to her blog post, then later changed my mind and removed it. I also changed the title of my post to be less abrasive. I did these things because I was thinking of her.
I can't change my opinion though, because I think that we as LDS sisters should be careful of being misled and I feel that publishing nude photos of ourselves is not in accordance with modesty.
Modesty doesn't make us less powerful or our bodies less beautiful.
I am sorry that you are dissapointed by my views. I find nothing in the scriptures that would condone sharing such photos, however, from what I have read, I find scripture that condemns it.
Can you make a scripture-based arguement in favor of sharing our birth photos on the internet or in print? I would consider anything that you can share with me. As I am always seeking after truth.
As I said in my post, I share my thoughts with you, my sister, in love.
Susana, I think it interesting that most of the comments here are 'for' your perspective, it is relieving to know that there are a few able and willing to stand up for modesty. I have had photos of all of my births,
at my third, I had a friend take a whole roll of film that was destroyed because the can I be blunt? "crotch shots" were countless.
I was embarrassed and did not show any living soul these, but imagine the photo lab (before the days we printed them off at home)
the tech at the lab has seen as much of me as my husband nearly!
I have to say, maybe those who view this nakedness as not offensive have become desensitized to nudity. it is on TV and all forms of media, and it is something that creeps in and becomes OK if we let it. Good for you to stand up for what is virtuous. I look forward to your thoughts as usual.
much Love, Dee
I'm with Dee. The doula at my birth took a lot of pictures of my nudity, and I'm not comfortable showing them to anyone, apart from my husband. In fact, they are in a folder separate from my other birth photos. Thankfully, they were taken with a digital camera, and have never been printed on photo paper, so the only people who have seen them is me, my husband and my doula. I'm glad that a stranger at a photo lab hasn't seen them. That's another reason for why my husband wants to get a film scanner so we can create digital photos of our film photos using our home computer and avoid using professional film developers at all, only for printing when we want to, (at least I think that's how it works).
My husband wants the freedom to rejoice in his love for me and combine it with his love of photography, one of his hobbies. The only way I would consent to that is if the photos are only ever seen by him and me, and then are kept in a safe place where others are not able to see them. We beleive that doing this would hold our sexuality and marriage relationship sacred, but allow for that form of loving expression to take place within our marriage.
I think there are two (at least) different parts of this issue. First, is it right/"should" birth be done modestly? As in, is it ok to birth in the nude. I think most of us are in agreement that there is nothing wrong with nudity for birth, although it is worth thinking about as far as who is with you at your birth. If it's just your husband, and young children...no worries, I would think. If you have older sons, or if people outside your family, particularly men, are attending your birth, this is cause to re-evaluate. Honestly, for me, I kind of take the opposite approach. Not "They are here, so I should be more modest", but "I'm not going to be modest, so perhaps they should not be here." And thus, a private UC.
The second issue is, assuming that you are birthing in the nude, should pictures be taken, and if so, should they be displayed for anyone other than those who were attending the birth originally?
My thoughts are that, if you want pictures for yourself - in this day and age where you don't have to send them to a photo-lab - go right ahead. (Although, then I find myself thinking...what about when I'm 90 years old with dementia..who will find those? Anyway....) But as far as sharing them...my inclination is to not share them with anyone that you wouldn't have accepted at your birth in the first place. A close female friend, perhaps a younger sister, preparing for her first birth...yes, I would share with her. Not with her husband...:-) And not posted on any internet site or forum.
Someone said, "If men only see women's bodies for sex--and not see breastfeeding, pregnancy, and birth--women's bodies will never be elevated beyond sexual objects."
The point, to me, is that actually...as far as literally "seeing"...men *should* only "see" women's bodies, if it is their own wife; and in that case, they will see it for sex, for breastfeeding, for birth, etc, etc. I really don't believe that some stranger, viewing a photograph of me breastfeeding or birthing, would really change his mindset about women's bodies, based on that photo. The key to teaching men to respect women's bodies, is not to show our bodies more, in any context, whether at the store, or giving birth; the key is to show less.
Also, "And woman need to see the beauty and power that their bodies are created for."
While we can appreciate that our bodies are beautiful and powerful, the purpose of this power, and this beauty, is to glorify God. Not for our own pleasure, or ego, particularly. Our bodies are created in His image. Male, and Female. God doesn't go around showing His body to just anyone; I think that there is something worth following in His example in that.
Just my rambling thoughts...
Carrie
among others, i am also coming from the lds-uc list.
i have waited to comment, mainly because my point of view differs so baldly from the rest who have posted.
i agree that modesty is very important in every day life. we have been given guidelines and been asked to keep our bodies sacred. however, that doesn't mean that we need to hide our bodies.
i am especially concerned that you feel incomfortable laboring infront of your teenage children, particulary your sons. these are your sons, not random young men. how are we ever going to help young men change their views of womens bodies unless they see the difference? someone said that their husband felt a breast was a breast and therefore sexual in nature because of its simply being a breast, no matter what it was being used for. would this grown man feel that way if he had seen his mother in different forms of womanhood? would he feel the same way if the female body had not been hidden from him as an adolescent, but instead had been seen as another of Gods life giving creations? (and i don't mean to single you out, whoever you are, i am jsut using this man as an example among many. he may have had a different upbringing that i present. i mean no offense.)
we as women and mothers need to stop hiding our bodies. keeping them sacred does not mean hiding them. we need to cherish them for what they are, which are life giving vessels, not purely sexual objects. i feel that most of the discomfort coming from birthng nudity comes from a general discomfort with the body alltogether, in the alltogether.
i agree that modesty is a gospel related principle, and i am a modest, temple worthy member. however, i have no shame of my body. yes it is uncomfortable to share it with others, because it is special to me. but not because it is wrong to share it. with my last pregnancy, i did a belly cast and was aided by all of my sisters, my mother, and my best friend. this required me getting completely nude infront of all of them. it was emberassing, but not uncomfortable. i also took pictures of my pregnant belly. for these pictures, i am nude except for a cloth draping my breasts and genitals. not because i felt they needed to be covered, but because i didn't want my nudity to detract from y pregnant stare in the photographs. soon after my son was born, i took nude pictures to document my bodies journey as a mother. i feel that they are beautiful and tasteful and completely acceptable in the eyes of the Lord. they are posted on the internet. ( http://theshapeofamother.com/2008/03/i-am-a-mother-anonymous.php )
my mission on this earth is to be a mother. i have been told that by a servant of the Lord. i feel that that includes helping others to be happy being mothers. part of the struggle with many mothers is their unhappiness of the pending physical results of motherhood. i took and posted my photos to inspire women/mothers, as my calling on this earth.
birth videos and nudity are not wrong. when it is shared with a loving/educational purpose, and someone views it for evil purposes, then the viewer is in the wrong and not the poster. it is not our fault for others shortcomings.
our bodies are His creation. we should not be ashamed or secretive of them. i liken it to the temple, whic hour bodies are likened to. they are not secret, but sacred. and should be shared accordingly.
if someone unworthy were to sneak into the temple, would the temple workers be at fault, or the person who was there without being worthy?
we shoudl worship our bodies, not hide them away.
these are all ramblings made with my three children runnign circles around me while i breasstfeed at the keyboard, forgive me for mispelles/typos or unfinished thoughts. i hope my point of view is clear.
*abby
I'm going to respond to a few of these comments...
"our bodies are His creation. we should not be ashamed or secretive of them. i liken it to the temple, whic hour bodies are likened to. they are not secret, but sacred. and should be shared accordingly."
I agree with this statement, but not where you take it. We should share our bodies in a similar way that the Lord shares His temple. Only those who are worthy to see the inside of the temple, and its functions, are welcomed. Not only those who are worthy, but those for whom it is appropriate. Take our youth, for example. They can have a youth recommend, but they still may not attend a sealing. So, to follow this analogy, we should only share our bodies with those that are worthy. And how can we determine the worthiness of those viewing our body, if we are posting it on an unsecured, publicly available website? Also, perhaps some would consider that it is appropriate for a teenage male to see their mother breastfeeding, but not be comfortable with their son being in the room to watch a husband (his father) check his wife's cervical dilation.
"if someone unworthy were to sneak into the temple, would the temple workers be at fault, or the person who was there without being worthy?"
Indeed...but we're not talking about someone hacking into your private, secured website. We're talking about posting something openly, on a public site. Our church does not post the details of our temple ceremonies online, or publish them in newspapers or magazines, and then say, "Well, it's up to those who view this to be worthy." Our temple ordinances are not displayed outside a context wherein a worthiness recommend is required to be shown.
"we shoudl worship our bodies, not hide them away."
This, I have to say flat out, is not true. We should not worship our bodies. We should worship the Lord our God. We worship Him *with* our bodies, and *in* our bodies, just as we worship Him with and in our temples.
I do hope that this is not taken as a personal attack. I do not mean it to be at all. I am very glad at the opportunity to discuss this subject with other LDS women, and to hear others' points of view. I truly believe that there is an answer to this, that the Lord does have an opinion, and that He wants us to be able to know His will for us, and that as we discuss together, and read His word, that we can determine His will for us in this.
Carrie
Several times a read someone write' "birth is sexual". I've given birth three times and soon to be four, and I do not see it as sexual in any way. Please explain to me how this event of bringing my child into the world through agony and distress is sexual!!! It is as far from sexual as anything I have ever done. I'm no novice... I have been having sex for eighteen and a half years and know full well what it is about, both holy and in sin. I came to salvation eight years ago, around the same time I got married to a godly Christian man. I repented of the fornication of my past and know the wonders of holy sex with my husband.
On that note, there was a time before I knew Jesus or my husband that I was involved in looking at pornography (which I have also repented of). Nudity does not = pornography. Pornography is all about unholy, perverted sex. The sad thing, especially in the American, but more and more world wide as we become more global, is that pornography has become so pervasive that people have come to associate all nudity with unholy perversities. I strongly feel that is why many of us are uncomfortable with our birth "crotch shots" (as I have also called them) being seen by others. We know that it is highly probable that the lab techs, etc.. have the same associations in there mind, and we don't want to be thought about in that way.
I am one of many for whom the disconnection of birth in our culture left me greatly fearing giving birth. It was because of nude labor videos that I was able learn, understand, appreciate, honor, and embrace the beauty of natural birth.
I love my LORD more than anything in this world. I choose to withhold naked pictures of my birth because of the possibility that someone may see it in a perverse way and stumble.
Coming from the LDS UC list too!
Interesting discussion going on here! I haven't completely made my final decision on what I think here, but here are a few thoughts:
I disagree with this statement:
"Breastfeeding is not sexual. Breastfeeding is nurturing. Birth is sexual, therefore it should be private."
I used to say that breastfeeding was not sexual. And even now, I am uncomfortable with the fact, but I do think that it is a little sexual. I'm currently tandem nursing an 18-month-old and an almost 4-yr-old. The same hormones (oxytocin being the only one I can remember) are made during orgasm, birth, and breastfeeding.
On the other hand, maybe that similarity they have is not meant to be thought of as sexual, but rather as nurturing. I guess that would mean that having an orgasm brings up the nurturing hormones in us, not necessarily that birth & breastfeeding bring up the sexual hormones... I don't know - I just wanted to point out that similarity. As I said before, I'm currently uncomfortable with realizing that breastfeeding is sexual, but I can't deny that it is designed to at least be pleasurable. I'm sure that's part of the plan, to make breastfeeding a mutually enjoyable occasion for the mother & child.
To the poster just before me who is surprised at the idea that birth is sexual: I've pointed out the hormonal connection. You may not be a novice in the sexual realm, but perhaps you could be further enlightened in the birthing realm? I don't believe that birth is intended to be filled with "agony and distress"... yes, it is hard work. But it is productive work and can bring with it a huge sense of accomplishment. I think that most of us here, even if we haven't felt truly *sexual* during birth, have at least been striving to experience it as triumphant, sacred, and glorious; rather than painful, distressing, and agonizing.
On a related note: have you all seen the trailers for the movie Orgasmic Birth? http://www.orgasmicbirth.com/ warning: when you visit the site, the trailer starts automatically & it begins with some birth moaning that may make you uncomfortable if you're uncomfortable with this idea!
http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/sensual/orgasmic.html
This is another site I really like that talks more about that idea. I guess I'm getting off on a tangent. I mostly wanted to provide some info for readers like the last poster who were unfamiliar with the idea of sexual birth.
-Nikki
Thanks to ALL the ladies joining in on this discussion. I love it. This is how we grow in understanding and in our convictions.
I have to say that I was trying to respond to each individual comment, but it I have gotten behind and now that seems kinda hard. So forgive me if I skip a comment.
Thus far I have to say that Carrie seems to be right in sync with my thinking. She is expressing thoughts that I wish had come to me first. Good job Carrie!!!
A couple more responses.
Nudity doesn't equal pornography. If you read my follow-up post you will see that I agree with that.
But I think explicit nudity is still wrong.
Nikki does a good job discussing sexuality in birth and breastfeeding.
Nikki, it is funny that just the other day I was nursing my 7 week old son with my 15 yr old daughter next to me. She loves to watch him nurse and she is so good at helping me care for him. I know she looks forward to being a mother.
I talk to her alot about birth, pregnancy and breastfeeding. So the other day I shared some thoughts with her that I was having about breastfeeding. I told how amazing it is that God made breastfeeding to be enjoyable to babies AND moms. We know babies love it (that's why they stop crying!). I explained to her how it feels soo good to nurse, to feel babies skin against your skin, his soft little feet on my tummy and his soft hair and to hold him close and feel him so warm.
I went on to tell her how there are hormones that make a mom feel love and get all sleepy when nursing. We are designed to respond to babies' cries, our milk lets down.
Anyway, you're right its the same hormones, and it feels "good" but not in a sexual way to me. Not orgasmic kind of way, but loving, nurturing.
As for the comment about being bothered that I don't want to birth in front of my sons...
I have bathed with my babies and toddlers. When they get around 5 I don't do this anymore, particularly my sons. When my boys turn about 8, I don't bathe them anymore. Especially by 10 they want and need their own privacy. Forget bathing my 13 year old. He barricades the door so no one enters while he is showering. (My 15 yr old daughter does too since the lock on the door is broken right now!)
I nurse in front of my whole family. I nurse in public and at church too. I am quite good at nursing without exposing myself, so much so that people have commented at how proficient I am.
Because I am confident with my body, I can nurse comfortably. I have a freind who I think is not comfortable with her body and she covers all up and gets all nervous and I try to ease her. Even though she has nursed 7 kids she still gets flustered.
So even though I nurse in front of my sons, I would not change my shirt in front of them.
I wore an undershirt tied below my breast during my recent birth so that if my boys wanted to they could visit me while I labored with out making them feel uncomfortable. And they did come visit and give me a kiss.
Nikki, I won't be watching the orgasmic birth movie. I have come to think that watching graphic birth videos at my stage of the game, (as I am not learning about how to accomplish natural birth)
is SOMEWHAT SIMILAR to voyeurism.
(n) voyeur, Peeping Tom, peeper (a viewer who enjoys seeing the sex acts or sex organs of others)
I know my statement is VERY politically incorrect!!!
Very interesting.
I found the picture of Rixia very inspiring! The glow on her face is something every new mother should have. Yes, you see some breast, but really, I don't think that overwhelms the picture.
I REALLY wish I had seen birth videos and photos before my first birth. In generations past, women got their education about birth by BEING there; for many, that's not possible now.
I'm not sure about saying birth is sexual, but breastfeeding is not. My breasts are very sexual to me; I don't show them off either, but I don't hide during breastfeeding. Sure, the baby was made by sex which involved the vagina, and the breasts had nothing to do with conception, but my best sex includes the breasts :) At the time of birth, it was a totally non-sexual event. No one is thinking about sex at that moment, LOL. But still, I'm not about to show a close up of the crowning of my own babies (but I would have liked to see others). So, I see both sides of the story.
And that blog you linked to about how birth can be done with clothes on....she does have some sort of top on, but I bet she didn't have anything on below the waist ;)
Hi Tracy,
I actually think the photo you're refering to is not of Rixa. Rixa linked to another woman's blog. But anyway, thanks for stopping by and sharing your opinion.
I still say that birth videos and photos may serve a purpose, but they can also be done carefully.
I don't see why the photos we are speaking of couldn't have been taken without exposing this woman's entire body. I just don't need to see that.
And of course the woman who is wearing a sports top in the photo I linked to does not have clothes on her bottom half. That's why she didn't show us photos of that part of her body ;)
Thanks for adding to this discussion!
Post a Comment